tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post8102327105428840086..comments2023-12-28T05:38:49.370-05:00Comments on Escaping Armstrongism: New Covenant SabbathxHWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-2667624977468440842009-03-02T22:53:00.000-05:002009-03-02T22:53:00.000-05:00Thank you, Bill. :)Thank you, Bill. :)technosenseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612372834565489373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-89756299956600102642009-03-02T22:52:00.000-05:002009-03-02T22:52:00.000-05:00Bob,"I do have to admit, though, as my local churc...Bob,<BR/><BR/>"I do have to admit, though, as my local church, I probably would not choose any of the churches spawned by William Miller."<BR/><BR/>That's perfectly fine. You have to go where you feel comfortable. I would say the same for me as well, because William Miller, Ellen G. White, etc, all make me very uncomfortable, but I keep one thing in mind: God hates religion. I am not at the COG7 for their religion; only the fellowship. If you find a place with people you mesh with - stay! If they try to sell you religion, go. God bless and guide you, friend!<BR/><BR/>"It's just an incredible miracle that any of us from the WCG background would be able to trust again, considering what we've been through."<BR/><BR/>Darned straight, Bob. I second that.technosenseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612372834565489373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-5727264823608953872009-03-02T10:17:00.000-05:002009-03-02T10:17:00.000-05:00Well done. This is a keeper.Bill HohmannWell done. This is a keeper.<BR/><BR/>Bill HohmannAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-28546159212775065862009-02-28T14:20:00.000-05:002009-02-28T14:20:00.000-05:00xHWA, I can certainly understand why you would wan...xHWA, I can certainly understand why you would want to attend services. I would like to participate in a local church, too, because a church community provides an outlet for Christian service, a place to take communion, and an opportunity to participate in some organized praise or worship. Those are some things which you can't get by tuning in to broadcasts on Christian radio, or TV. I do have to admit, though, as my local church, I probably would not choose any of the churches spawned by William Miller.<BR/><BR/>I'm an independent Christian, and because of my agnostic background, much of my theology is informed by science, archaeology, and history. I do find some of the TBN messages on general Christian living principles to be very inspiring, and useful in daily life. However, it would be very difficult to find a specific congregation whose doctrines I found myself in alignment with. <BR/><BR/>In my years on the blogs, I've encountered some former members of WCG that have gravitated towards the Universalist Unitarian church, but for me, UU is much too broad, and doesn't seem to stand for anything specific. As an example, Wiccans attend UU, and are also in some cases involved in the clergy, even though they do not believe in God as such.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I should go church hopping on the weekends. It's funny. When I was agnostic, people I spoke with on the street used to invite me to their churches. It would be easy to interpret such an invite as an anonymous act of God. Since God came back for me (one of his prodigal sons), there have been none of these street invitations. In the past year, the only spiritual event I've attended was Reign Down USA, which is an organized national day of prayer for forgiveness, blessings, and our national spiritual revival. I have no problem embracing such goals, even to the extent of providing financial support to Shawn Marie, the organizer of the event.<BR/><BR/>I tend to believe that Jesus intended for us to be independent, allow His Spirit to work in and through us, and to help people wherever we see a need, or in situations where we can discern that the Holy Spirit is already working. <BR/><BR/>It's just an incredible miracle that any of us from the WCG background would be able to trust again, considering what we've been through. The important thing to remember, though, is that it wasn't God who did what was done to us. It was man, misuing the things of God.<BR/><BR/>BBAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-42035392498854015222009-02-28T10:00:00.000-05:002009-02-28T10:00:00.000-05:00Hi Bob!"That's a whole lot different from having o...Hi Bob!<BR/><BR/>"That's a whole lot different from having one megalomaniac or narcissist proclaiming that he has more of the Spirit, and that God is working exclusively through him during this era, so you'd best get in unity with him."<BR/><BR/>Oh man, yes! You said a mouthful right there!xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-2376331804547680292009-02-28T09:59:00.000-05:002009-02-28T09:59:00.000-05:00PH,"So are you saying the CoG7 is currently going ...PH,<BR/><BR/>"So are you saying the CoG7 is currently going through the same thing in the 21st century that WCG went through in the '90s??"<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I think you could relate the two. Of course, the COG7 never had that "the glorious Leader" thing going on, so certain details aren't 1:1, but I'd say it's a lot like that. <BR/>The COG7's change is a bit slower, though. And a lot less academic. By that I mean no one has argued about 'hypostasis' or any such thing.<BR/><BR/>BTW... LOVE Bab5! I need a Daffy Duck poster.<BR/><BR/>"So, then, how do you react to that? Do you try and present your side of meats laws as you have here?"<BR/><BR/>I don't hide my views, but I also don't push them on anyone. I allow them room to believe as they do until they are ready to let go of that old teaching. And if they want the details of what I believe, they can always come here and read up.<BR/>I think an important part (perhaps the most important part) to understand is that meats, even though it was taught in the past, is nothing compared to the Gospel. We all realize that meats, whether we keep them or not, is not even secondary, but tertiary at best when compared to things that really matter, like the Gospel of Jesus Christ and faith and loving one's neighbor. So, really, meats is not a big deal. It was never as big a deal as HWA made it out to be; now it's much less so.<BR/><BR/>"Or do you just bite your tongue and "if you can't say anything good, don't say anything at all"?"<BR/><BR/>I must admit, it takes a bit of that. But that's life in general. I don't think that's a bad thing. <BR/>I say what I feel needs said, but I don't preach to them. And they don't preach to me. We concentrate on what we have in common, rather than what divides.<BR/><BR/>"And how do you reconcile that with being authentic to yourself and your own beliefs?"<BR/><BR/>I don't need anyone to think as I do in order to be authentic to myself. I have hope, faith, patience, and love for all of them. They will come around when they are ready.<BR/><BR/>"if you don't share the overall beliefs as the rest of the people you're "assembling with", why would you even bother to do so? For example, if there are some in your CoG7 congregation who are uncomfortable with your freedom, why would they still attend the same church as you?"<BR/><BR/>Ohhh... I'd say I stay because I like them. I feel comfortable there. I like the messages. I like to see them going through what I'm going through now.. meaning, I am putting that old legalism behind and so are they.<BR/>I honestly don't know of anyone who is uncomfortable with what I believe - I just speculate that because human nature is what it is.<BR/><BR/>"why would you want to be around anyone who's preaching meats laws in the first place, regardless of the context? Doesn't that make you uncomfortable?"<BR/><BR/>Where I am, they do not preach it. They used to, and all of the people there have been in the COG7 for several years so they had all been part of that. But now those old things are fading away. They are learning the liberty that I am learning.<BR/><BR/>"No, I know, it doesn't make logical sense that I can't understand why/how you manage to co-exist peacefully with others who don't share your beliefs, and yet you're all in the same church?! ??? That's why I'm trying to wrap my head around a different perspective of it."<BR/><BR/>Not a problem, PH. I'm happy that you're interested in my story. I think it boils down to love. If you have love, it covers a multitude of sins - so to speak. Faith, hope, and love, and humility. We're all learning. We're all growing. We are all right in some ways, and we're all wrong in some ways. I think your questions have actually helped me to appreciate them more. Thanks for that! Because I see that they are not like our old WCG - where everyone had all these pet theories and thought so highly of themselves and preached to each other all the time, and condemned each other all the time. It's really not like that in the COG7. And that's a darned good thing!xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-38876444701128981162009-02-28T09:24:00.000-05:002009-02-28T09:24:00.000-05:00So are you saying the CoG7 is currently going thro...So are you saying the CoG7 is currently going through the same thing in the 21st century that WCG went through in the '90s??<BR/><BR/>If yes, it certainly sounds like they are implementing it a little better than our former church did. Also sounds like you're "the right person, in the right place, at the right time, doing the right thing for all the wrong reasons". ;-) (Babylon 5 reference.)<BR/><BR/><EM>"I think it works like this - instead of talking down about people who don't keep meats laws, for example, those who believe in it simply talk positively about the keeping of meats laws. They just choose to not be negative about things."</EM><BR/><BR/>So, then, how do you react to that? Do you try and present your side of meats laws as you have here? Or do you just bite your tongue and "if you can't say anything good, don't say anything at all"?<BR/><BR/>And how do you reconcile that with being authentic to yourself and your own beliefs?<BR/><BR/>I guess it just seems to me that, if you don't share the overall beliefs as the rest of the people you're "assembling with", why would you even bother to do so? For example, if there are some in your CoG7 congregation who are uncomfortable with your freedom, why would they still attend the same church as you? <BR/><BR/>For that matter, whether it's positive or negative, why would you want to be around anyone who's preaching meats laws in the first place, regardless of the context? Doesn't that make you uncomfortable?<BR/><BR/>No, I know, it doesn't make logical sense that I can't understand why/how you manage to co-exist peacefully with others who don't share your beliefs, and yet you're all in the same church?! ??? That's why I'm trying to wrap my head around a different perspective of it.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your input.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-16428758368199932822009-02-27T19:13:00.000-05:002009-02-27T19:13:00.000-05:00Good discussion going on here!I've never attended ...Good discussion going on here!<BR/><BR/>I've never attended a COG-7 meeting or service. But, if I had to guess, I'd say that the differences are allowed because they realize that the Holy Spirit works from the bottom-up. One by one, people become converted and begin transformation of the heart as God's Spirit works with them. That's a whole lot different from having one megalomaniac or narcissist proclaiming that he has more of the Spirit, and that God is working exclusively through him during this era, so you'd best get in unity with him.<BR/><BR/>Oddly enough, the most religious amongst the Jews allow for considerable latitude in beliefs at any synagogue or temple. A healthy synagogue always has an abundance of debate, discussion, and difference of opinion. It's considered to be an indication of spiritual health! This is just my opinion, but I think this is the mark of spiritual security.<BR/><BR/>BBAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-13213499533175294352009-02-27T16:49:00.000-05:002009-02-27T16:49:00.000-05:00Seriously, though. Each COG7 congregation is indep...Seriously, though. <BR/><BR/>Each COG7 congregation is independent. They are a confederation (or conference) of local churches, so to speak. I can't speak for them all. <BR/>So, with that in mind, there is no set list of "truths" or any such thing that anyone must adhere to in the COG7. The two guidelines are love God, love your neighbor - in that order. So long as one can do that, they're following all the requirements. I read the Bible Advocate also, and I love to see the stories of people who admit their deep and personal faults. That's something the Plain Truth would never have tolerated. And it's incredible.<BR/><BR/>The COG7 used to be very much like the old WCG: legalistic, closed, works over faith. Now, they are much more like the new WCG: faith over works, open, teaching they were mistaken about legalism. It is a culture shock to me. I went expecting another COG, and I found what really amounts to 7th Day Baptists. But I stay because I have never felt so inspired.<BR/><BR/>There are people there who tithe, people there who follow meats laws, etc. We all respect each other. I know what it's like to keep those things, so I relate. Some are probably secretly uncomfortable with my differences (I am just speculating about that), but they have never ever been anything to my family but welcoming and friendly. I don't push my liberty on them, and they don't push their tradition on me.<BR/><BR/>All of them, down to the very minister himself, has told me the new faith-based direction has taught them so much that they never understood before and given them such a wonderful relationship with God like they never knew was possible... I truly believe they are learning and growing, only some still have a few old traditions they are used to. They see the old legalism for what it is and they don't condemn anyone who is in the same mode as they all used to be in nor either those in the mode where they are headed.<BR/><BR/>I think it works like this - instead of talking down about people who don't keep meats laws, for example, those who believe in it simply talk positively about the keeping of meats laws. They just choose to not be negative about things.<BR/><BR/>Is that a good explanation?technosenseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612372834565489373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-51793109998431758192009-02-27T16:31:00.000-05:002009-02-27T16:31:00.000-05:00Well, PH, it's pretty simple, really, I.....Oh, it...Well, PH, it's pretty simple, really, I.....<BR/>Oh, it would appear we are out of time!technosenseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612372834565489373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-38660082948124593132009-02-27T16:15:00.000-05:002009-02-27T16:15:00.000-05:00"Odd you should mention that, PH. I've been dealin...<EM>"Odd you should mention that, PH. I've been dealing with that in my own home.<BR/><BR/>Hey!....... you were referring to me all along, weren't you?! ;P"</EM><BR/><BR/>Ah, busted. ;-) So, come on, dish the dirt: Are CoG7 really really really OK with having a congregation made up of members that span a spectrum of belief, instead of a "unified" set of people-bots?<BR/><BR/>I still don't see how they can reconcile that; you would think they would be at each other's throats, weekly! Or at least stabbing each other in the back, for a chance at the kingdom, the way we used to......<BR/><BR/>Seriously. How DOES it work? I know you've touched on the topic off-blog with me briefly, but I think it would be good for a post here. Kind of shake loose the preconceived idea that any given congregation has to be shiny happy people who all get along.<BR/><BR/>(Great now I'm gonna have that REM song stuck in my head. :-P)<BR/><BR/>The thing that doesn't make sense to me, personally, is why any believer would want to attend a group where there would be others in conflict or sometimes even direct opposition to their own beliefs......How does something like that even look, "on the ground" as it were? <BR/><BR/>Do you tiptoe on eggshells around each other? Do you just not discuss religion, outside of sitting and listening to the sermons?<BR/><BR/>Enquiring minds want to know! ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-5639206695852034272009-02-27T08:53:00.000-05:002009-02-27T08:53:00.000-05:00Odd you should mention that, PH. I've been dealing...Odd you should mention that, PH. I've been dealing with that in my own home.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Hey!....... you were referring to me all along, weren't you?! ;Ptechnosenseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612372834565489373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-4420115106147324862009-02-26T19:53:00.000-05:002009-02-26T19:53:00.000-05:00"Well, you can easily find people in the COG7 who ...<EM>"Well, you can easily find people in the COG7 who would agree."</EM> [with 10 commandments/meats laws]<BR/><BR/>What still blows my mind is that you can easily find people in the COG7 who <EM>disagree</EM> about these things --- but they still manage to stay in the same church with each other!!<BR/><BR/>That's the real head-scratcher.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-40723728862896682922009-02-26T09:06:00.000-05:002009-02-26T09:06:00.000-05:00Nice find, PH. You know what gives me a chuckle? T...Nice find, PH. <BR/><BR/>You know what gives me a chuckle? Take Fred Coulter for example. He says three things came forward into the New Covenant: the 10 Commandments, meats, and tithes. Well, you can easily find people in the COG7 who would agree. So.... why are they the "Dead Era" again?<BR/><BR/>Looks like we have a dilemma on our hands.technosenseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612372834565489373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-76398719906227257172009-02-26T04:46:00.000-05:002009-02-26T04:46:00.000-05:00Would you look at that: I can't tell if Bobboleh T...Would you look at that: I can't tell if Bobboleh Thiel is actually <A HREF="http://www.cogwriter.com/news/doctrine/cg7-on-animals/" REL="nofollow">agreeing with the CoG7</A> or not. He didn't even put in his usual pitch for the LCG this time!<BR/><BR/>Horror of horrors, Thielology for Dummies is promoting the reading of worldly literature from the Sardis era church!! What would Spanky say if he knew?!?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-61652628678757059402009-02-25T09:43:00.000-05:002009-02-25T09:43:00.000-05:00That a whole lot of "professing Christians" (Wow, ...That a whole lot of "professing Christians" (Wow, we actually used that term, and it's still kicking around in my head.....)"<BR/><BR/>Oh man, watch out! You're using Herb-speak! ;P lol<BR/><BR/>All joking aside, I assert that a "Christian" is a person who follows Christ. After all, He did say "follow Me". If a person isn't following Him (I don't mean perfectly; nobody's perfect) then how can they call themselves "Christian"?<BR/><BR/>"...don't seem to demonstrate, IMO, because they go more with my version than yours."<BR/><BR/>Yeah. :( I observe the same thing.<BR/><BR/>I have hope, though!technosenseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612372834565489373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-30134552538188023552009-02-25T04:44:00.000-05:002009-02-25T04:44:00.000-05:00Correct. But the opposite is not true. No 'old cov...<EM>Correct. But the opposite is not true. No 'old covenant' still 'old testament' left over."</EM><BR/><BR/>Hm. OK, that's fair, I guess.<BR/><BR/><EM>"The only thing a mainstream Christian has to do is believe is that a man lived and died long ago at Jerusalem. That's it."<BR/><BR/>Well, I'd say it's a bit more complicated than just that. I mean, love and have faith. Don't forget the love. It's an active thing."</EM><BR/><BR/>That a whole lot of "professing Christians" (Wow, we actually used that term, and it's still kicking around in my head.....) don't seem to demonstrate, IMO, because they go more with my version than yours.<BR/><BR/><EM>"See, this is why I say that we were never Christians."<BR/><BR/>"Wow. Even though I would tend to agree, it still feels bad."</EM><BR/><BR/>Sorry. :-(<BR/><BR/><EM>"The sad part is how it's a continual source of trouble, confusion, and pain when the wrong hands (like HWA's) get hold of it."</EM><BR/><BR/>Or when the more fundy of the fundamentalists get hold of it. I.e., the ones who bomb abortion clinics ("I'm pro-life, so I'm gonna kill a whole buncha people fer gawd!!" Yeah no that makes perfect sense right?! :-P), etcetera, etcetera, I'm sure you can think of some other examples besides the CoGs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-10806524320831258482009-02-24T18:01:00.000-05:002009-02-24T18:01:00.000-05:00"Your message to PH is adequate but not satisfacto..."Your message to PH is adequate but not satisfactory,"<BR/><BR/>Corky - this is the part where I would be expected to take great offense, and run my mouth off at you, etc. But strangely enough I agree with your assessment.<BR/>In my defense, I left my response vague on purpose.<BR/><BR/>I don't think a Christian needs the Old Testament to be a good Christian. I just think it's a great source of deeper instruction. Like I said, mainly for what NOT to do. <BR/><BR/>Did Jesus fulfill it all like you said? You betcha! I agree there too. But to me that's a good reason to read the OT. How do we know what He fulfilled if we don't read it? It deepens my faith. Maybe not for everyone.<BR/><BR/>"After the New Testament Canon was complete the old is only good for reference." I mostly agree. Reference for some, inspiration for others. The sad part is how it's a continual source of trouble, confusion, and pain when the wrong hands (like HWA's) get hold of it.technosenseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612372834565489373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-71009386114509075542009-02-24T17:50:00.000-05:002009-02-24T17:50:00.000-05:00"Ummmmmmmm......the "old covenant" comes from the ..."Ummmmmmmm......the "old covenant" comes from the "old testament"..... ?? No old testament, no old covenant."<BR/><BR/>Correct. But the opposite is not true. No 'old covenant' still 'old testament' left over.<BR/><BR/>"The only thing a mainstream Christian has to do is believe is that a man lived and died long ago at Jerusalem. That's it."<BR/><BR/>Well, I'd say it's a bit more complicated than just that. I mean, love and have faith. Don't forget the love. It's an active thing.<BR/><BR/>"See, this is why I say that we were never Christians."<BR/><BR/>Wow. Even though I would tend to agree, it still feels bad.technosenseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612372834565489373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-44582325301517046242009-02-24T17:32:00.000-05:002009-02-24T17:32:00.000-05:00That was a really good post xHWA, it's pretty simp...That was a really good post xHWA, it's pretty simple really. I don't see why Sabbatarians don't get it.<BR/><BR/>Your message to PH is adequate but not satisfactory, because Jesus not only fulfilled the law but also the prophets.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, a Christian really doesn't need the old covenant/testament - at all.<BR/><BR/>At the time it was said that the scriptures were profitable for instruction etc. - the old testament scripture was all they had.<BR/><BR/>After the New Testament Canon was complete the old is only good for reference.Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-86188074918442010112009-02-24T16:28:00.000-05:002009-02-24T16:28:00.000-05:00"However, my beef is with the Old Covenant, not th...<EM>"However, my beef is with the Old Covenant, not the Old Testament. The Old Covenant is what was replaced."</EM><BR/><BR/>Ummmmmmmm......the "old covenant" comes from the "old testament"..... ?? No old testament, no old covenant.<BR/><BR/><EM>"When HWA says the 10 Commandments were brought forward, there is no evidence for that in light of what we see happening in the Gospels and Epistles. To make HWA's theories work one has to twist and contort everything."</EM><BR/><BR/>Right, agreed, which is where the bible jigsaw "theology" took effect. For us, at least. Which was so much bunk.<BR/><BR/><EM>"If one sees there is such a thing as the 10 Commandments for Christianity (their faith is between them and God), they should understand the 10 are not the old 10 from Sinai, but a new 10."</EM><BR/><BR/>As the Skeptic's Annotated Bible notes of the sermon on the mount (Matt. 19:18): <STRONG>"Jesus lists the "ten commandments," but his list has only six, and the sixth is not one of the ten. The commandments given by Jesus are secular, not religious, in nature."</STRONG><BR/><BR/><EM>"I think you bring up a good point, mainstream Christianity's hostility towards the Old Testament. I think that stems from early hostility between Christians and "Judaisers"."</EM><BR/><BR/>And modern hostilities between Christians and Jews. Seems like most of it's coming squarely from the Christian camp, though. Well, OK, maybe with the exception of the Jews For Judaism website, an apologetics site against Christian evangelism......But that's the only anti-Christian Jewish polemic I can think of, off the top of my head.<BR/><BR/>Anti-Semitic polemic? A simple Google search will garner you millions of hits.<BR/><BR/>There is definitely something wrong with that picture..........<BR/><BR/><EM>"I feel the answer lies in a balanced view of both Testaments (not Covenants)."</EM><BR/><BR/>Balance is good. I like balance. :-) We may disagree on where the fulcrum exactly is (I see the texts as allegorical whereas you see them as inerrant), but I try and find a balance, too.<BR/><BR/><EM>"To be quite blunt, in my opinion, HWA's gospel and Christ's Gospel are not the same."</EM><BR/><BR/>The main difference between Armstrongist gospel and Christian gospel is that bad old bugabear, "I do not come to preach <EM>Christ</EM>, I come to preach his <EM>Gospel</EM>!" (Pardon me while I puke.) But that stems from the "god-as-god-is-god-we're-all-a-god-family-if-we're-called" lunacy to begin with.<BR/><BR/>Armstrong did get one thing right however: Christian gospel is solely preaching "Christ", not the teachings that are said to be his, not even all of the sayings that were attributed to "him"! (Cf., the Gospel of Thomas for an example.) The only thing a mainstream Christian has to do is believe is that a man lived and died long ago at Jerusalem. That's it.<BR/><BR/>That's it?!<BR/><BR/>See, this is why I say that we were never Christians. At least not how the term was meant in the rest of the world that we were cut off from.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-21608524824100600512009-02-24T09:02:00.000-05:002009-02-24T09:02:00.000-05:00Hi PH! Good questions.I do believe the Bible is on...Hi PH! Good questions.<BR/><BR/>I do believe the Bible is one book. I do believe all scripture is good for instruction, etc. For example I do believe the Old Testament contains many things that help us understand the details of what NOT to do. The OT is inspirational and a very good read. A person can get by with just the NT and live a fabulous Christian life, but to really get into the details of who Christ is, what He has done for us, why we need His sacrifice, etc, I think one needs the both Testaments.<BR/><BR/>However, my beef is with the Old Covenant, not the Old Testament. The Old Covenant is what was replaced. Not just slightly modified, but wholly and completely replaced. When HWA says the 10 Commandments were brought forward, there is no evidence for that in light of what we see happening in the Gospels and Epistles. To make HWA's theories work one has to twist and contort everything. <BR/><BR/>If one sees there is such a thing as the 10 Commandments for Christianity (their faith is between them and God), they should understand the 10 are not the old 10 from Sinai, but a new 10. There may even be resemblance between the two sets, but they are not the same. The Old Covenant was all shadow; the New all substance. A shadow may resemble that which casts it, but they are not the same. I think HWA totally missed the mark in insisting the 4th Commandment was carried forward identical to its old form. I think it skates on such thin ice that I want nothing to do with it. Paul is absolutely clear in what comes of turning to legalism.<BR/><BR/>I think you bring up a good point, mainstream Christianity's hostility towards the Old Testament. I think that stems from early hostility between Christians and "Judaisers". There is no need to abandon the Old Testament. I think that's unfortunate. I feel the answer lies in a balanced view of both Testaments (not Covenants). Humans tend to act like a pendulum - swinging from one extreme to the other as we move towards balance. The Catholics at one time swung to the extreme in one way, being hostile to the Old Testament. HWA swung the opposite way and tried to make us all terrible Jews. His approach was not balanced or rooted in the Gospel. His ridiculous British-Isrelism led him to think we are all Israelites and therefore everything in the Old Testament directly applies to us. (By "we" and "us" I mean, of course, white Anglo-Saxons.) To be quite blunt, in my opinion, HWA's gospel and Christ's Gospel are not the same.technosenseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612372834565489373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-45140879663034233102009-02-23T20:50:00.000-05:002009-02-23T20:50:00.000-05:00So do you agree with mainstream Christians, and yo...So do you agree with mainstream Christians, and you go with the commandments from the sermon on the mount instead?<BR/><BR/>If yes, then why even bother with the old testament at all? That's the thing I never could understand. Not that I believe the bible jigsaw theory anymore (even though I did believe it once).<BR/><BR/>I just don't get why mainstream Christians keep the Old Testament in their Bibles, when they are for the most part anti-Judaism, if not outright anti-Semitic.<BR/><BR/>After all, you wouldn't have to argue about the New Testament doing away with the Old Testament, if you had never had the Old Testament at all.......<BR/><BR/>Or maybe I'll just never understand. :-(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5553223623498441385.post-82544252105188190722009-02-23T13:14:00.000-05:002009-02-23T13:14:00.000-05:00I would also suggest that anyone who is interested...I would also suggest that anyone who is interested in more about the Sabbath also take the time to read <A HREF="http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html" REL="nofollow">"Justin Martyr's Dialogue With Trypho"</A>.<BR/><BR/>It really is amazing how Justin answered regarding the Sabbath.technosenseihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03612372834565489373noreply@blogger.com